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Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:52 pm
Talat Farooq
Over the last few weeks one of the main news items in the UK pertained to the trial of the Pakistani born Iftikhar Ahmed, 52, and his wife Farzana, 49. On Friday, August 3, Chester Crown Court in Cheshire found them guilty of murdering their teenage daughter, Shafilea Ahmed, in 2003. They have been sentenced to serve a minimum of 25 years each. According to the prosecutors the couple killed their daughter because her “western” habits such as wearing makeup, dying her hair or talking to boys brought shame upon their family.
Shafilea had disappeared in September 2003, and her body was found five months later on a riverbank in north-west England. The court heard that in February 2003, she had been drugged and flown to Pakistan by her parents to force her into marrying a much older man. She was however taken back to Britain after she drank bleach; she spent several weeks in hospital. She disappeared in September 2003 and her parents were arrested on suspicion of kidnapping but were released due to lack of evidence. They were rearrested in 2010 after Shafilea’s sister Alisha came forward to give evidence against her parents. She told the jury that as her parents forced a plastic bag into Shafilea’s mouth in front of their other children, her mother said, “Just finish it here.”
Passing sentence, Judge Roderick Evans told the couple, who live in Warrington, Cheshire: “Shafilea was a determined, able and ambitious girl who wanted to live a life which was normal in the country and in the town in which you had chosen to live. You wanted your family to live in Pakistan in Warrington. She was being squeezed between two cultures.” Judge Evans then added poignantly, “Your concern about being shamed in your community was greater than the love of your child.”
The culture specific question regarding the communication gap between immigrants and their children as highlighted in the judgment is valid. So too is the fundamental tension between trying to live in Pakistan while living in Warrington. However, it is the factor of ‘shame’ or ‘honour’ being greater than one’s love for one’s offspring that is so frightening.
‘Honour killing’ is as inexplicable as it is tragic. Why would seemingly normal parents or siblings or close relatives be willing to kill their own near and dear ones for the sake of reputation? Why should parents be obsessed with a perverse morality that forces them to discard humanity in the name of honour? How could a mother go against her natural instincts and snuff out the life with which she shares most genes – a life she gave birth to and nurtured for years? It doesn’t make any sense from an evolutionary point of view, according to psychologists. However, from a psychological and cultural point of view, ‘honour’ killings are usually linked to an extreme form of ‘status anxiety’ – the fear of losing face and the obsession to protect it.
More importantly ‘honour’ killings are linked to male dominance and low female status. In patriarchal societies females are usually perceived as ‘property’ of the male members of the family. The elusive honour of the high and mighty male is linked to her honour and she is supposed to protect it if she wants to be loved and protected. No such thing as unconditional love here. She has to forfeit her God given right to make choices in order to receive human acceptance.
In such societies the would-be-murderers suffer from a deep sense of inferiority complex which they are unable or unwilling to offset with positive accomplishments that could help them grow as strong and noble human beings. Instead they resort to delusions of grandeur, legitimising their narcissism in the name of religious or cultural traditions. Instead of inculcating a sense of respect for the female, who is no way lesser than him, the male gets a false sense of power by hurting and harming the female who in turn has been socially conditioned to think of herself as physically and emotionally dependent on him. It is this social conditioning of the women that urges them to obey the ‘superior’ male and follow his instructions. Sometimes, as in the case of Shafilea, the woman takes her obedience to ‘new heights’.
The commandment to ‘obey thy husband’ was perhaps too well ingrained in Farzana’s mind because of her own cognitive experiences in life. This then becomes the classic case of the abused becoming the abuser. She could identify more with the pathological inclinations of her husband than with her helpless daughter.
This ‘face saving’ obsession is the downside of our ‘biraderi’ system within which we are constantly under pressure to obey collective rules in order to inculcate a social identity so as to satisfy our need to belong. We are a prisoner to this system even when we live thousands of miles away because we carry the conditioned responses within ourselves without ever questioning their validity. Sadly, although this feeling of security is an illusion, many of us would rather live this lie than have the courage to rock the boat. It then becomes justified to murder a 17-year-old because she wanted to live life on her own terms. Since she is the property of the male, she must die because she wants to live. You can then kill your daughter in 2003 and for the next nine years eat, sleep and make money and live with this horrible knowledge without dying of remorse or going mad with grief. Something must really make it worth it!
From another perspective, this is the story of three females whose lives were hostage to male ego – Farzana, the mother who killed, Shafilea, the daughter who rebelled but could not save herself and Alisha, the sister who finally mustered the courage to stand up for her murdered sibling. Within this triangle is the beginning, the middle and the end of the story; it contains the cause, the effect and the remedy.
Shafilea wanted to become a lawyer but instead she became a legal case herself. When they could not kill her spirit they killed her body and got over with it. Her siblings saw it happen and their psychological scars will never go away, denying them normal lives. Yet, Alisha’s courage in standing up to the authority figures is what brings a touch of hope to this darkly evil drama – a drama which is in fact a replay of female infanticide that the Prophet forbade nearly fifteen hundred years ago.
The writer is a PhD student at Leicester, UK. Email: talatfarooq11@gmail.com
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... -of-honour
Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:36 pm
Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:43 pm
Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:01 pm
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:28 pm
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:39 pm
Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:04 am
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:17 am
Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:10 am
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:00 pm
Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:19 pm
Fri May 03, 2013 2:54 pm
Fri May 03, 2013 11:39 pm
In the name of honour
First unread post • 13 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:52 pm
Talat Farooq
Over the last few weeks one of the main news items in the UK pertained to the trial of the Pakistani born Iftikhar Ahmed, 52, and his wife Farzana, 49. On Friday, August 3, Chester Crown Court in Cheshire found them guilty of murdering their teenage daughter, Shafilea Ahmed, in 2003. They have been sentenced to serve a minimum of 25 years each. According to the prosecutors the couple killed their daughter because her “western” habits such as wearing makeup, dying her hair or talking to boys brought shame upon their family.
Shafilea had disappeared in September 2003, and her body was found five months later on a riverbank in north-west England. The court heard that in February 2003, she had been drugged and flown to Pakistan by her parents to force her into marrying a much older man. She was however taken back to Britain after she drank bleach; she spent several weeks in hospital. She disappeared in September 2003 and her parents were arrested on suspicion of kidnapping but were released due to lack of evidence. They were rearrested in 2010 after Shafilea’s sister Alisha came forward to give evidence against her parents. She told the jury that as her parents forced a plastic bag into Shafilea’s mouth in front of their other children, her mother said, “Just finish it here.”
Passing sentence, Judge Roderick Evans told the couple, who live in Warrington, Cheshire: “Shafilea was a determined, able and ambitious girl who wanted to live a life which was normal in the country and in the town in which you had chosen to live. You wanted your family to live in Pakistan in Warrington. She was being squeezed between two cultures.” Judge Evans then added poignantly, “Your concern about being shamed in your community was greater than the love of your child.”
The culture specific question regarding the communication gap between immigrants and their children as highlighted in the judgment is valid. So too is the fundamental tension between trying to live in Pakistan while living in Warrington. However, it is the factor of ‘shame’ or ‘honour’ being greater than one’s love for one’s offspring that is so frightening.
‘Honour killing’ is as inexplicable as it is tragic. Why would seemingly normal parents or siblings or close relatives be willing to kill their own near and dear ones for the sake of reputation? Why should parents be obsessed with a perverse morality that forces them to discard humanity in the name of honour? How could a mother go against her natural instincts and snuff out the life with which she shares most genes – a life she gave birth to and nurtured for years? It doesn’t make any sense from an evolutionary point of view, according to psychologists. However, from a psychological and cultural point of view, ‘honour’ killings are usually linked to an extreme form of ‘status anxiety’ – the fear of losing face and the obsession to protect it.
More importantly ‘honour’ killings are linked to male dominance and low female status. In patriarchal societies females are usually perceived as ‘property’ of the male members of the family. The elusive honour of the high and mighty male is linked to her honour and she is supposed to protect it if she wants to be loved and protected. No such thing as unconditional love here. She has to forfeit her God given right to make choices in order to receive human acceptance.
In such societies the would-be-murderers suffer from a deep sense of inferiority complex which they are unable or unwilling to offset with positive accomplishments that could help them grow as strong and noble human beings. Instead they resort to delusions of grandeur, legitimising their narcissism in the name of religious or cultural traditions. Instead of inculcating a sense of respect for the female, who is no way lesser than him, the male gets a false sense of power by hurting and harming the female who in turn has been socially conditioned to think of herself as physically and emotionally dependent on him. It is this social conditioning of the women that urges them to obey the ‘superior’ male and follow his instructions. Sometimes, as in the case of Shafilea, the woman takes her obedience to ‘new heights’.
The commandment to ‘obey thy husband’ was perhaps too well ingrained in Farzana’s mind because of her own cognitive experiences in life. This then becomes the classic case of the abused becoming the abuser. She could identify more with the pathological inclinations of her husband than with her helpless daughter.
This ‘face saving’ obsession is the downside of our ‘biraderi’ system within which we are constantly under pressure to obey collective rules in order to inculcate a social identity so as to satisfy our need to belong. We are a prisoner to this system even when we live thousands of miles away because we carry the conditioned responses within ourselves without ever questioning their validity. Sadly, although this feeling of security is an illusion, many of us would rather live this lie than have the courage to rock the boat. It then becomes justified to murder a 17-year-old because she wanted to live life on her own terms. Since she is the property of the male, she must die because she wants to live. You can then kill your daughter in 2003 and for the next nine years eat, sleep and make money and live with this horrible knowledge without dying of remorse or going mad with grief. Something must really make it worth it!
From another perspective, this is the story of three females whose lives were hostage to male ego – Farzana, the mother who killed, Shafilea, the daughter who rebelled but could not save herself and Alisha, the sister who finally mustered the courage to stand up for her murdered sibling. Within this triangle is the beginning, the middle and the end of the story; it contains the cause, the effect and the remedy.
Shafilea wanted to become a lawyer but instead she became a legal case herself. When they could not kill her spirit they killed her body and got over with it. Her siblings saw it happen and their psychological scars will never go away, denying them normal lives. Yet, Alisha’s courage in standing up to the authority figures is what brings a touch of hope to this darkly evil drama – a drama which is in fact a replay of female infanticide that the Prophet forbade nearly fifteen hundred years ago.
The writer is a PhD student at Leicester, UK. Email: talatfarooq11@gmail.com
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... -of-honour
Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:36 pm
SEM
To place this redundant OFT repeated , one dimensional , beaten down to death-( no PUN intended or implied)- topic here reminds me of the TV Ads.
The person who writes this article is supposed to be a Ph.D. candidate..........yet what he writes is only half the story and does not even bother to acknowledge the other half.
What is the other half..........well it is selfishness, it is superficiality, it is obsession with things other than a sense of belonging...it is ignorance and it is the inability to THINK.........yes inability to think. It is also the intrusion of "outsiders" into a house hold where assumed-( by the parents)- values and ethics do not exist but are assumed that somehow by MAGIC the next generation will adopt-( by genetics) the ways of the older generation. A young woman died, killed by design and planning. How bright she was does not make it any worse. The parents
behaved in a most inhuman manner..YES..........but could the daughter have been more thoughtful of the stresses that her actions placed her parents under.
In the final analysis, there is only one essential fact in this or any similar story..........and THAT is a total DISCONNECT between the two parties and as in ANY disconnect............the fault if there is one lies with BOTH parties of the conflict.
I must also say that it is also " biological beings" BREEDING without any thought or consideration as to the consequences and as to what their responsibilities as PARENTS are. It is also an illustration of the helplessness of human beings of lesser intellectual caliber, unable to comprehend the problems and incapable of dealing with the situation other than what transpired in this case.
The story has NOt shocked anyone, other than those that do not know........ since this is nothing new amongst members of "other" societies transplanted -( or NOT) into an alien environment .
De-humanization is rampant .......and not only in the West but everywhere. And for such an act to take place, dehumanization of the victim is essential FIRST.
And education or sophistication has nothing to do with this. I know a very well educated physician-( Female)- who actually killed her own daughter in the office of one of the top ( female) lawyers in Lahore.
More interesting is the fact that though everyone is building MOSQUES and Islamic Centers everywhere in the West......NO one but NO ONE has even thought of making an institution where such people-(families)- under stresses may be helped.
To place this redundant OFT repeated , one dimensional , beaten down to death-( no PUN intended or implied)- topic here reminds me of the TV Ads.
The person who writes this article is supposed to be a Ph.D. candidate..........yet what he writes is only half the story and does not even bother to acknowledge the other half.
What is the other half..........well it is selfishness, it is superficiality, it is obsession with things other than a sense of belonging...it is ignorance and it is the inability to THINK.........yes inability to think. It is also the intrusion of "outsiders" into a house hold where assumed-( by the parents)- values and ethics do not exist but are assumed that somehow by MAGIC the next generation will adopt-( by genetics) the ways of the older generation. A young woman died, killed by design and planning. How bright she was does not make it any worse. The parents
behaved in a most inhuman manner..YES..........but could the daughter have been more thoughtful of the stresses that her actions placed her parents under.
In the final analysis, there is only one essential fact in this or any similar story..........and THAT is a total DISCONNECT between the two parties and as in ANY disconnect............the fault if there is one lies with BOTH parties of the conflict.
I must also say that it is also " biological beings" BREEDING without any thought or consideration as to the consequences and as to what their responsibilities as PARENTS are. It is also an illustration of the helplessness of human beings of lesser intellectual caliber, unable to comprehend the problems and incapable of dealing with the situation other than what transpired in this case.
The story has NOt shocked anyone, other than those that do not know........ since this is nothing new amongst members of "other" societies transplanted -( or NOT) into an alien environment .
De-humanization is rampant .......and not only in the West but everywhere. And for such an act to take place, dehumanization of the victim is essential FIRST.
And education or sophistication has nothing to do with this. I know a very well educated physician-( Female)- who actually killed her own daughter in the office of one of the top ( female) lawyers in Lahore.
More interesting is the fact that though everyone is building MOSQUES and Islamic Centers everywhere in the West......NO one but NO ONE has even thought of making an institution where such people-(families)- under stresses may be helped.
Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:43 pm
May be if the parents stop thinking of their daughters as their properties, the problem can get solved. First they would raise their daughters in the west where they clearly get aware of their rights and they would just take them to Pakistan and would try to fix them with someone of prehistoric mindset. They really net to grow up. This reminds me of a Pakistani neighbors in Ontario. The parents would always talk against the Canadian culture and have forced their 11 year old daughter wear a scarf. Whenever she'd come to my house she'd ask for computer to play. Once I found out that she watches only Indian songs on youtube, the cheap stuff was simply inappropriate for the child. I could see where the child were heading but her parents were totally ignorant about her trends and told me that they would just let her do the high school and then they'll find her a husband back home.
Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:01 pm
Economic salvation comes at a price, this is the untold story of the Pakistani Diaspora. As a culture, keeping up appearances matter to us even when it means grave discontent and unhappiness within. It is about giving the best and the most inflated impression of yourself in public - one manifestation of which is our use of a pidgin language called 'Urlish' (a vulgar mix of Urdu and English) that gives a semblance of belonging to the educated class.
The moral of this story is quite simple; you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot insulate your children from wider society so it is for this reason that you need to keep lines of communication and trust open with them. You cannot raise your children using exactly the same skills that were used on you if your were brought up in Pakistan and this is important. Parents need to learn new skills and methods and must rely on reason and compromise if they are not to push the self-destruct on their family life.
Whilst I find it hard to find forgiveness for Shafilea's parents but it is perhaps not difficult to see that things had gone wrong a long time before the actual murder - a total break down of relationships. In some sense, it may be be possible to think of her parents as victims of their own up bringing and cultural lock (with its insistence on blind compliance) that had totally disabled them from learning and growing individuals so it can be argued that did not stand a chance to give their children a balanced start in life.
"In such societies the would-be-murderers suffer from a deep sense of inferiority complex which they are unable or unwilling to offset with positive accomplishments that could help them grow as strong and noble human beings."
That is truly a load of rubbish, clearly written by an academic sitting at a desk. It is the superiority complex that drives them; the belief that they are right and culturally superior and that they are the follower of the only true path to salvation; this of course results in the paranoid fear of subversion of this self-affirming bubble by the dark forces within society.
It is simplistic to argue that this was about 'male ego' holding females hostage, it would be proper to say that it is cultural ego of men and women, holding children hostage to expectations that they barely understand let alone follow. The natural result is a double life; that way you keep everyone happy. As long as you keep the two lives apart there isn't a problem but all hell will break loose if they happen to meet.
To me, the love of my children will drive me to keep learning and growing as a parent and always make sure that I have done everything to understand my children and the environment that they are growing up in.
The moral of this story is quite simple; you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot insulate your children from wider society so it is for this reason that you need to keep lines of communication and trust open with them. You cannot raise your children using exactly the same skills that were used on you if your were brought up in Pakistan and this is important. Parents need to learn new skills and methods and must rely on reason and compromise if they are not to push the self-destruct on their family life.
Whilst I find it hard to find forgiveness for Shafilea's parents but it is perhaps not difficult to see that things had gone wrong a long time before the actual murder - a total break down of relationships. In some sense, it may be be possible to think of her parents as victims of their own up bringing and cultural lock (with its insistence on blind compliance) that had totally disabled them from learning and growing individuals so it can be argued that did not stand a chance to give their children a balanced start in life.
"In such societies the would-be-murderers suffer from a deep sense of inferiority complex which they are unable or unwilling to offset with positive accomplishments that could help them grow as strong and noble human beings."
That is truly a load of rubbish, clearly written by an academic sitting at a desk. It is the superiority complex that drives them; the belief that they are right and culturally superior and that they are the follower of the only true path to salvation; this of course results in the paranoid fear of subversion of this self-affirming bubble by the dark forces within society.
It is simplistic to argue that this was about 'male ego' holding females hostage, it would be proper to say that it is cultural ego of men and women, holding children hostage to expectations that they barely understand let alone follow. The natural result is a double life; that way you keep everyone happy. As long as you keep the two lives apart there isn't a problem but all hell will break loose if they happen to meet.
To me, the love of my children will drive me to keep learning and growing as a parent and always make sure that I have done everything to understand my children and the environment that they are growing up in.
@stingingnettle1
stingingnettle1@gmail.com
stingingnettle1@gmail.com
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:28 pm
Educate your children yourself, about the surrounding ever changing world and it's value,s as a trust worthy friend certainly not a rigid boss towards you children may curb such sad incidences.
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:39 pm
Pakistani47, I'm overjoyed you've managed to overcome some of your technical problems to make your voice heard here once again. And I definitely agree with you. Parents who think they must play the boss with their children just condemn those poor children to unending mistakes. And then to play judge, jury and executioner with them only goes to show how inadapted they actually were ever to take on parenthood. Luckily for humanity, such parents are not the norm but the exception.
Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:04 am
The solution lies not in psychotherapy or sociology or religion or whatever environmental changes or acceptance thereoff.
The solution is in proper plan of GENETICS.......chose your MATE very carefully....
..................you may laugh but it is true...........How you may ask.
Good minds come from good people. Educated good minds. Kindness is inherited. Compassion is inherited.
To expect an ass not to KICK is to dream that you have won the lottery.
To hope that religion will somehow transform a human being is not true.
The bad people find in religion the very same justifications.............you have doubts about that........well just look at the Wahabis and their intense hatred towards the Shia. And do not forget the new winner of the Noble Peace Prize.
So, the parents were busy making money...yes.........they did not spend time with their daughter........yes........they expected their daughter to behave like as though they were in their village in Pakistan..........maybe.
But one cannot ignore that it takes two to TANGO.........so one unreasonable bunch people stood face to face with a CREATURE of the SAME genetic make up.............BOOM....explosion..........the result that is the cause for lamentation here.
Good temperament breeds good temperament.....and the same is true for stupidity, intolerance and whatever else...... and so the tragedy.
You can try...and I say TRY to train a scorpion not to STING-( Pun intended)- but it ain't going to work
The solution is in proper plan of GENETICS.......chose your MATE very carefully....
..................you may laugh but it is true...........How you may ask.
Good minds come from good people. Educated good minds. Kindness is inherited. Compassion is inherited.
To expect an ass not to KICK is to dream that you have won the lottery.
To hope that religion will somehow transform a human being is not true.
The bad people find in religion the very same justifications.............you have doubts about that........well just look at the Wahabis and their intense hatred towards the Shia. And do not forget the new winner of the Noble Peace Prize.
So, the parents were busy making money...yes.........they did not spend time with their daughter........yes........they expected their daughter to behave like as though they were in their village in Pakistan..........maybe.
But one cannot ignore that it takes two to TANGO.........so one unreasonable bunch people stood face to face with a CREATURE of the SAME genetic make up.............BOOM....explosion..........the result that is the cause for lamentation here.
Good temperament breeds good temperament.....and the same is true for stupidity, intolerance and whatever else...... and so the tragedy.
You can try...and I say TRY to train a scorpion not to STING-( Pun intended)- but it ain't going to work
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:17 am
My observations regarding those who seek ‘honor’ in killing:
• They are usually underachievers
• They have very little self-esteem and suffer from inferiority complex
• They don’t have any opinion of their own and so can’t stand up for their family and for that matter for the well-being of their daughters
• They might have been exposed to some sort of severe case of betrayal and feel themselves going through the same
• Their only concern is ‘Log kia kahain gay/ khalaq ba se wayee’
• They are usually underachievers
• They have very little self-esteem and suffer from inferiority complex
• They don’t have any opinion of their own and so can’t stand up for their family and for that matter for the well-being of their daughters
• They might have been exposed to some sort of severe case of betrayal and feel themselves going through the same
• Their only concern is ‘Log kia kahain gay/ khalaq ba se wayee’
Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:10 am
Dildar;
You have summed it up in a beautifully concise sentence;
"Their only concern is ‘Log kia kahain gay/ khalaq ba se wayee’"
It is "keeping faces" that is our true religion; the outward piety and holiness we display for the benefit of others is like the political spin we often complain about.
May be we should worry more about 'what our children will say and feel' instead of all those 'people' who could not give a flying duck about the well-being of our children.
You have summed it up in a beautifully concise sentence;
"Their only concern is ‘Log kia kahain gay/ khalaq ba se wayee’"
It is "keeping faces" that is our true religion; the outward piety and holiness we display for the benefit of others is like the political spin we often complain about.
May be we should worry more about 'what our children will say and feel' instead of all those 'people' who could not give a flying duck about the well-being of our children.
@stingingnettle1
stingingnettle1@gmail.com
stingingnettle1@gmail.com
Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:00 pm
Well thought off reflections and I feel of myself to be lucky enough to be able to view superb expressed thoughts along with much possible solutions. I will be back after a short while to complete my post. Pls accept my apologies.
Thanks
Thanks
Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:19 pm
Dildar, this forum misses you a lot. Have my word, and I am pretty steadfast to what I believe prior to what I say...
Humanity is but a void without the presence of a better half of Adam and without that adam was quite inept to rectify his loniless but Allah Subhana Taala ceated Eve, so that humanity would mature into a society populated by Insan and not by Aadmi became they differ a lot since evolution /by/of/and for humanity.
At a very sad note sister, meray watan main adami to bahut hain laiken Insan nadarad!
Humanity is but a void without the presence of a better half of Adam and without that adam was quite inept to rectify his loniless but Allah Subhana Taala ceated Eve, so that humanity would mature into a society populated by Insan and not by Aadmi became they differ a lot since evolution /by/of/and for humanity.
At a very sad note sister, meray watan main adami to bahut hain laiken Insan nadarad!
Fri May 03, 2013 2:54 pm
What are men doing in Ladies Forum?
Fri May 03, 2013 11:39 pm
Javed,
This is not an exclusive section for women but it is a section where women's issues are discussed. Everyone is welcomed to contribute in a polite and tolerant manner.
I hope this answers you question.
Thanks.
This is not an exclusive section for women but it is a section where women's issues are discussed. Everyone is welcomed to contribute in a polite and tolerant manner.
I hope this answers you question.
Thanks.
@stingingnettle1
stingingnettle1@gmail.com
stingingnettle1@gmail.com
13 posts
• Page 1 of 1